Horus Heresy Beard Strokings

[Dog Pants]

I'm on something like the thirtieth Horus Heresy book now (incidentally, where the fuck does Aurelia go in the series?) and I've all manner of stuff buzzing about in my brain, for those few others who know the series.

First up, I've noticed that every primarch is cast sympathetically. Even the most hated ones - Lorgar was arguably the most compassionate until the Emperor sent Gillman to slap him. The Nikaea proclamation seemed to have been deliberately designed to fuck over the otherwise loyal Magnus. Even Angron explains why he's so messed up in one of the short stories (while beating the shit out of his newest chapter master - promotion is literally dead mans boots in the World Eaters).

Secondly. My theory is that the Emperor deliberately caused the heresy. For a guy who's tens of thousands of years old and the greatest mind of humanity he sure fucked up with Lorgar and Magnus. He isn't even consistent - he lets the mechanicum worship him as the omnissiah but he destroys Lorgar's city for doing the same. Considering the aftermath of that decision was it worth it? Librarians were disbanded after Nikaea (even loyal chapters thought that was stupid and ignored it later on) but the Wolves got to keep theirs. Given how much of an asset Magnus and his legion would have been in the Heresy that was monumentally stupid. Even before that he pissed half of the primarchs off by making a big song and dance of retiring, and then rubbed it in by sending artists and bureaucrats to the expedition fleets to get on everyone's tits. If he didn't do this on purpose (and bearing in mind the Alpha Legion had a bigger reason than Horus to rebel, so he might have known about that too) then he must have been on crack.

Lastly, how could it have gone differently? Magnus was loyal until he was booted out, if he'd been forgiven for his little teleport accident that could have tipped the tables. Fulgrim only turned because he was forced to, he didn't want to. On the other hand, Sanguinius might not have turned but if he'd died then the Blood Angels would have. The Dark Angels almost did go over, again it was only their primarch who stopped it. Fucking Guilliman virtually proclaimed himself Emperor when he heard about the Heresy - he was definitely putting himself in the frame as the replacement had it gone tits up. Quite a few legions could have gone either way.

Anyway, brain disgorged. I know Anery and Pnut will disagree with some if not all of that (traitor Angels? The very idea), so interested in any counter arguments.

[Joose]

I have to admit to not knowing all that much detail on the events, having never read any of the books, but the main question I would have to that is "Why?" What does the Emperor gain from the heresy that he wouldn't have got if it hadn't happened?

[Dog Pants]

There's a faction (ancient wise aliens yadda yadda) who claim that if humanity were to conquer the galaxy it would lead to the same fate that befell the eldar (if you don't know the back story to them, they got fucked when they spawned Slaanesh). They say that living under Chaos is better than being destroyed by them. Or that humanity will die in a blaze of glory rather than a slow and painful demise. I forget exactly which. The Emperor could be aiming for the halfway house that happens. He's not stupid, as I said.

There's more going on in the backround with the primarchs too. There are quite a few clues to say they might be part daemon - one daemon wryly asks Lorgar where Sanguinius got his wings if they were supposed to be pinnacles of humanity. Then their progenies - the marines - have inherited some pretty supernatural flaws in several cases: the Blood Angels shit out again with their blood rage thing, the Space Wolves have a spot of lycanthropy, the Thousand Sons turned into tentacle monsters if they ate after midnight (or something) and there are hints that the two deleted legions had similar defects. So it could be that the Emperor engineered the Heresy to get rid of all the primarchs for being fucked up genetic experiments.

[buzzmong]

So it could be that the Emperor engineered the Heresy to get rid of all the primarchs for being fucked up genetic experiments.

That wouldn't be too far fetched based upon what the Emperor did with the Astartes predecessors, the Thunder Warriors, but it flies in the face of the fact all the Primarchs had special retreats built inside the palace (implying a plan that they'd retire after the crusades), there were plans for a couple of them to rotate duties controlling the Astronomican while the human Webway was being built, and by all accounts they weren't created to be disposable, like the aforementioned 'Warriors were.

[Dog Pants]

Maybe he hadn't always considered them failures. Or maybe he figured he didn't need so many of them so he'd wheedle out the least faithful. I just can't get past the idea that everything that brought about the Heresy was instigated by the Emperor, deliberately or otherwise.

[buzzmong]

Maybe he hadn't always considered them failures. Or maybe he figured he didn't need so many of them so he'd wheedle out the least faithful. I just can't get past the idea that everything that brought about the Heresy was instigated by the Emperor, deliberately or otherwise.

I feel differently, I think if the Emperor hadn't have been stuck holding the door closed on the ill-fated Imperial Webway (and also just focused on it in general), then the Heresy probably wouldn't have happened or at least would have been stamped out very quickly. He was stuck on it except for the short period where Malcador sat on it to allow the Emperor to go fight and utterly destroy Horus in orbit at the end.
I think the Heresy was brought about by Chaos, but due to the Emperors own folly with the webway, he was utterly unaware and powerless to do anything about it for the most part, which allowed it to flourish from a small insurrection to the full blown war.

As for the Primarchs, only one or two truly fell initially, the rest were coerced by the actions of others until they fell as well. If the above hadn't have happened, would they have fallen?

[Dog Pants]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't think it was instigated by Chaos. The Heresy starts with the Word Bearers after Lorgar goes off to what will become the Eye of Terror in search of the Chaos gods. Why does he do that? Because the Emperor humiliates Lorgar for worshiping him, and Lorgar needed to find out who really was divine. Until then Lorgar was the most peaceful of the primarchs (the embodiment of his father's love), creating 'perfect worlds' - paradises made through conversion rather than compliant worlds through conquest. His brothers disliked him for that, and that it took him longer to do it that way, so it doesn't take a psychologist to work out how he might react if he was told his god is false, his work was wrong, and to be done so by razing his favourite city and making his entire legion kneel before Guilliman, his least liked brother. The only way the Emperor could have made it more offensive would have been to give him a wedgie.

And for what? Because the Emperor doesn't like religion? He doesn't seem to have a problem with the Mechanicum worshiping him, or that cult which eventually becomes the Empire's Emperor-worshiping religion, and who he actively helps on several occasions. So there's no precedent for the punishment, and several to the contrary.

[Joose]

Could it not just be that he fucked up? Yes, he is supposed to be super clever, but not actually infallible (despite what the religious loons say). Even the smartest of smart people fuck up in stupid ways occasionally.

As for the inconsistency thing: Could it be that he considered it worth slapping down in some instances and not in others? Whole planets full of people who think he is god seems like something he would want to stop, whereas the Mechanicum was just the tech loons on Mars, and didnt they think he was just the spokesperson for the Machine God? Slapping down one primarch seems a lot less risky than starting a full on religious war with the guys who make your technology go.

Again, i'm not that well read in the 40k lore, hence the above being presented as questions

[Dog Pants]

I think that's pretty much how it's presented, but I still don't go for it. Lorgar was doing great work and he humiliated him. Meanwhile normal citizens were starting a cult claiming exactly the same thing and it's hinted the Emperor actually helped them. I think at some point there's a psycher who gets in trouble at the palace and is visited (in his psychery dreams) by the Emperor who compares it all to a great game of Regicide, sacrificing his own king to win the game. Could be a response to the Heresy, which recently began at that point, could be an allusion to deliberately setting the whole thing in motion.

There's no firm evidence to support my theory, but there's nothing to categorically dispute it either, and it's more interesting to my mind.

[buzzmong]

The problem with Lorgar is that he was clearly going against the Imperial Truth when he not only kept searching for a deity, but made whole worlds venerate the Emperor as a god. He is the core reason the current Imperial ideology exists due to the book he created (pre-crusade) and his belief that the Emperor is a god.

I think he and his legion were punished so harshly because they were directly, knowlingly and willingly going against the will of the Emperor when they knew better.

The Mechanicum at least weren't in direct violation as the pushed technology first, which is part of the Truth anyway.

[Dog Pants]

Lorgar only went in search for a deity after he was made to denounce the Emperor as one though. He wasn't actually causing any problem until then - in fact he was doing a better (albeit slower) job of it than the other expeditions, and everyone else adopted something very similar to his original theology as soon as the Emperor was entombed anyway. So it ended up being entirely counter-productive - one of the visions somewhere showed a comparison of possible timelines, one where the Heresy hadn't happened and the Imperium had adopted the Book of Lorgar, and the one which actually happened. The only difference was that in Lorgar's one everything was white and gold and heavenly, and the other (real) one was all skulls and grimdark and flagellation. The Emperor might not have known that of course, but it's fairly possible he did - Sanguinius had a fraction of his father's ability for seeing possible futures, so it's not like he was blind to possibilities.

As I say, there's nothing solid to say he did know what would would happen, or that he did it deliberately, but if not he was either being irrational or ignorant.

[buzzmong]

There's more going on in the backround with the primarchs too. There are quite a few clues to say they might be part daemon - one daemon wryly asks Lorgar where Sanguinius got his wings if they were supposed to be pinnacles of humanity. Then their progenies - the marines - have inherited some pretty supernatural flaws in several cases: the Blood Angels shit out again with their blood rage thing, the Space Wolves have a spot of lycanthropy, the Thousand Sons turned into tentacle monsters if they ate after midnight (or something) and there are hints that the two deleted legions had similar defects. So it could be that the Emperor engineered the Heresy to get rid of all the primarchs for being fucked up genetic experiments.

I was musing on this paragraph earlier today and while it does make sense for some of the Primarchs, especially the ones who fell to Chaos, it doesn't explain the likes of Guilliman, El'Johnson, Khan, Manus or Dorn, who appeared pretty much flawless in terms of their makeup, as represented by their chapters.

[Dog Pants]

Funny you should say that. I went and googled my theory to see what the proper nerds had to say about it, and in one discussion someone pointed out that the flaws were picked up when the kiddi-primarchs were scattered through the warp. Seems like a reasonable conclusion. On the other hand the whole facility was contained in a gellar field, which would suggest they were born in the warp in the first place. So who knows.

I had another thought, too. Those homes for each of the Primarchs in the palace. The Emperor intended to develop the Primarchs himself, not for them to be cast all over the galaxy and develop on whatever world they landed on. Is it not a reasonable assumption that those villas were built for them to grow up in?

[Anery]

Here I go, I've got my waders on.

The third faction whose name I don't know but John Grammaticus is one of, they say that if humanity is to conquer the universe then chaos will win anyway. The only way to stop this is to help destroy humanity and let Chaos burn itself out - or something similar, it's been a while since I read Legion.
If the Emperor knows this but believes that Chaos will only be discovered if religion is allowed or Magnus does something stupid then it explains his actions regarding banning religion but letting the Lectitio Divinitatus exist (oh shit I couldn't stop it let's try and use this to my advantage) and the Librarius. If the Mechanicum worship him as the Omissiah but their religion is totally tech based then there should be no danger of them discovering the Empyrean.

I have to disagree with your statement about casting the Primarchs in a sympathetic light. I still hate Lorgar, guy's a dick. Fucking wolf man went down in my estimation because he is also a dick. Fulgrim was the architect of his own downfall, he's a dick. Like wise Liono Jonson is a dick, he could have dealt with his situation a lot better and not twisted loyalties the way he did. I don't like Curze either.
Guilliman I see in a new light, I fucking hated the smurfs until I read Mark of Calth. He is a pragmatist, a realist and a very canny fellow. He planned to make Sanguinius the new Emperor of Imperium Secundus should the Emperor and the Imperium fall, not himself.

I do agree with your Traitor Angels statement, though. Both Dark and Blood came very very close to turning the other way, like you said, had Sanguinius died on Signus Prime they would have turned and we all know about Liono's trust issues.

[Anery]

I was musing on this paragraph earlier today and while it does make sense for some of the Primarchs, especially the ones who fell to Chaos, it doesn't explain the likes of Guilliman, El'Johnson, Khan, Manus or Dorn, who appeared pretty much flawless in terms of their makeup, as represented by their chapters.

Ferrus Manus, the man with the silver eyes and arms of living steel? that guy?

To be fair, Horus wasn't tainted either - until someone gave him the Choas AIDS - and Fulgrim was just a Preening twat. Come to think of it, had Angron not had the nails he wouldn't have any particular affinity to the warp and I've never heard of Mortarion having warp connection either - sure he can breath poisons but that's more to do with his Primarch genetics and his upbringing than any otherworldly ability.

[Pnut]

Ferrus Manus, the man with the silver eyes and arms of living steel? that guy?

Ferrus wasn't born with steel arms. He held a Silver Wyvern (or something similar) in lava to kill it and its skin melted and transferred to his arms iirc.

[FatherJack]

Was he called Ferrus Manus before his arms turned to metal, or is that just his new nickname?

[Dog Pants]

I think he was a child when he did the drake thing, just popped from his pod, so the name probably came after the arms. They're still wrong though since his hands aren't made from iron. Were his legion called the Iron Hands before they found him? Now that would be a bit of a coincidence.

[Dog Pants]

Furthermore (had to go out mid-post to take Sprog to Brownies)...

I think Prospero Burns is where they explain the Space Wolves' motives, which is that fighting their brothers pains them as much as it would any other legion (arguably more in the case of, say, the Death Guard or Night Lords), but they grimly do it because it's their job. Doesn't explicitly extend to Russ, but all the primarchs seem to have a certain bond. It's likely why the opening scene of that book is there - the warband who butchers the entire village are described as normally allies, but they are driven to commit atrocities because they believe to let them live would leave to something much worse. In both cases, in their eyes, they're euthanising their brothers. It kind of happens with Angron too - Russ pleads with him to refrain from putting the nails in his legionaries because it will eventually lead to them coming into conflict.

I've pretty much run out of Heresy novels to read now, but I want to know more about Mortarion and Curze. I'm sure there'll be reasons for them being dicks too.

[Pnut]

I need to read them all again, its been 3 or 4 years I think since I last read one so I am a bit out of the loop.