Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version)

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Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version)

Postby buzzmong » September 13th, 2015, 20:37

Boom.

Some interesting re-entries in the list, some big drops for others like L4D2 and Alpha Centuri. Some very interesting new entries, like Sensible Soccer from 1992 coming in at 87.

I think this is a rather intriguing list as it's definitely been approached from a different angle, I can't decide if it's an angle on a game's playability as the top factor or if it's perhaps how much of a game experience it is rather than simply an interactive movie/book, hence in inclusion of some rather old and/or off beat choices, quite a few being from just after the millennium as well.

Thoughts?
Last edited by buzzmong on September 14th, 2015, 23:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby FatherJack » September 14th, 2015, 3:34

They got a few the wrong way round in my view, and weirdly their contradictary comments underneath sometimes agree with this.

Mass Effect 2 > Mass Effect 3 > Mass Effect 1 ? That's pretty much back to front, 1 was epic, 2 rather forgettable and 3 I didn't finish.

New Vegas > Fallout 3 ? Both great games, but 3 had more ambiguous outcomes from your choices whereas Vegas had mostly obvious good/evil choices. Tranquility Lane, The Republic of Dave, Moira Brown, Blowing up Megaton, Little Lamplight, Giddyup Buttercup - there are few bits in Vegas to match those.

Dishonoured > BioShock Inifinte? Out at around the same time, with a lot of similarities (crows/rats powers), they should be certainly closer than on this list, with Inifinite better the better game for me.

Two ARMAs and two Thiefs and Dooms? Not sure that was necessary, they only have one Dark Souls, one Quake, one Sims, one L4D, one Batman. Doom 2 was practically just a map pack.

Far Cry 2 and Deus EX HR don't belong in a top 200, CounterStriike: GO is just CounterStriike with large print for the hard of thinking, and my game of last year Dragon Age Inquisition doesn't show up at all on a list that has a bunch of 2D platformers like off the Commodore 64.


I guess it's a compliation from the views of their writing staff, which isn't a large enough group to dilute the entries into a more consensual list. If they have some guy who insists Train Stimulator is the greatest fucking game on the planet, then it's going to get on the list. Also they seem to like to be seen to promote indie games.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby Joose » September 14th, 2015, 7:20

FatherJack wrote:Mass Effect 2 > Mass Effect 3 > Mass Effect 1 ? That's pretty much back to front, 1 was epic, 2 rather forgettable and 3 I didn't finish.


Whut? Madness! The combat in ME1 was balls, the driving about sections were balls and it had some pretty significant technical issues. ME2 improved the combat, didnt have that stupid car and was much better put together. ME3 had combat that was enjoyable enough that I played the combat only multiplayer mode quite a bit by itself, completely fucked the driving off and was lovely to look at. All three had excellent writing, but where 1 was decently written, 2 was ace (and people put to much emphasis on how bad the ending of 3 was. It wasn't that bad, and its a very small bit of a very long game). I think they have it exactly the right way around.

New Vegas > Fallout 3 ? Both great games, but 3 had more ambiguous outcomes from your choices whereas Vegas had mostly obvious good/evil choices. Tranquility Lane, The Republic of Dave, Moira Brown, Blowing up Megaton, Little Lamplight, Giddyup Buttercup - there are few bits in Vegas to match those.

Dishonoured > BioShock Inifinte? Out at around the same time, with a lot of similarities (crows/rats powers), they should be certainly closer than on this list, with Inifinite better the better game for me.


I'm with you on those though, and I am also boggling at the lack of Inquisition. Easily the best fantasy RPG I have played in years.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby Dog Pants » September 14th, 2015, 15:49

Comments as they spew forth from my tired consciousness:

ME2 > ME1 > ME3 for me. The combat sucked in all three, but by the third one I'd got utterly sick of it. ME2 beats ME1 for the Salarian/Krogan thing with Mordin. I didn't finish ME3.

If Half Life 2 is still the pinnacle of PC gaming then it's a poor state of affairs. We haven't improved on it in 11 years?

I'd have put Planetside 2 much higher, and had Wolfenstein TNO instead of Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

Replace Battlefield 3 with BF2 or BC2, and bump it up about 50 places.


There's not that many in there that made me think they shouldn't be somewhere in the top 100, but it's all very subjective. It doesn't really seem to have a consistent criteria for 'best' either. Some are genre-defining but have been eclipsed by modern versions (e.g. Doom, DayZ, Thief, Oblivion), others are good but not the most influential example of their genre (e.g Battlefield 3, Planetside 2, XCOM, Fallout 3), and others are represented multiple times in the same series (e.g. Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Portal).

I'd love to lock a dozen 5punkers in a room full of beer and pizza and refuse to let them out until they came up with a list. I think it would be quite different.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby FatherJack » September 14th, 2015, 17:14

Dog Pants wrote:I'd love to lock a dozen 5punkers in a room full of beer and pizza and refuse to let them out until they came up with a list. I think it would be quite different.

Except they wouldn't want to come out.

I think we'd have to agree on some criteria given just three of us rank the Mass Effect games completely differently. I'm remembering Mass Effect 1's epic ending and trying to forget the epic lifts. I kinda liked the Mako (the car) even if it was more fiddly than driving the Warthog from Halo with boxing gloves on - it gave a sense of arrival to the locations instead of just landing right on top of them. It was one of the first games to be a console conversion to PC done right.

The combat in the earlier games was more tactical, unsursprisingly similar to Knights of the Old Republic (2003) but became more ARPG/FPS-like in the third which I found jarring and at times very frustrating. I did not enjoy the boss fights at all and would probably not buy the next game if it continued down that path.


So a list of "most influential" games might be more achievable - games which were like nothing else we'd seen, which created conventions which later games slavishly follow. If we all made a shortlist they could be shuffled around and voted on to make our own best-of list. You wouldn't necessarily have to like the game, just agree with the points made about why it was important.

But "important" games aren't always the best ones, the ones that get dug out periodically and played again and again, either because modern updates or mods have improved upon them, or they were just so damn good in the first place. No, I don't mean Goldeneye.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby fabyak » September 14th, 2015, 18:39

I've only gone through the first couple of pages but the one which really pissed me off was Gone Home being higher up than The Stanley Parable. Don't get me wrong, Gone Home was a lovely story and nice and atmospheric but The Stanley Parable was all of those things and a lot deeper and more varied (not to mention fantastic writing and voice acting)
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby Dr. kitteny berk » September 14th, 2015, 19:35

Half Life 2 is not the best game ever.



I dunno what is, but I'm pretty sure 25% of the game is hoverboat cancer.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby Joose » September 14th, 2015, 22:37

Problem I have with any Top 100 lists, be they games, films, books or whatever, is that for me its all very situational. Sometimes I want to play something simple and fun that I can dip into for 5 minutes, other times I want to sit down with a cup of tea and play one game all afternoon. Sometimes I fancy a good story, other times the story can do one as long as im having fun. As such I find it pretty much impossible to rank them in any meaningful way because the answer to "is x better than y" is always "depends".

"Most influential" might be more achievable, but then we would end up with a list of games that's mostly 20+ years old. Although saying that, what is more influential: a game that everyone copied like mad for a few years, or a game that set a specific genres conventions for decades? Which is more influential, the game that did something first or the game that copied the first game, but then everyone cites as being the thing they copied later?
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby Dr. kitteny berk » September 15th, 2015, 8:30

Joose wrote:"Most influential" might be more achievable, but then we would end up with a list of games that's mostly 20+ years old. Although saying that, what is more influential: a game that everyone copied like mad for a few years, or a game that set a specific genres conventions for decades? Which is more influential, the game that did something first or the game that copied the first game, but then everyone cites as being the thing they copied later?


Good point well made.

Where do you place Wolfenstein 3d, Doom, Quake and Half Life in a top 100?

Wolfy started it all, Doom is by far the most influential, Quake brought true 3d, and models, rather than 2.5D and sprites, and HL made a story driven world that felt alive.

Also, to throw another bit into the mix, at least the start of FarCry blew my tiny fucking mind with the reactive AI when it came out, moreso than HL2 with it's feeling of this is all a bit set-piecy.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby FatherJack » September 15th, 2015, 16:42

They all deserve a place, even though they were part of the same "family" of games - the speed tricks used in Wolf3D such as factoring occluded surfaces into the binary space partitioning tree (ie not drawing stuff on the screen the player can't see) are still in use in the source engine.

In term of "wow not seen anything like it" they are also all contenders. Interestingly Wolf 3D is itself based on Hovertank 3D and Catacomb 3-D, earlier ID games, dating back to the EGA graphics era, before PCs (and VGA graphics) became a more mainstream gaming platform.

Wolf3D was only clever if you knew how it worked - we'd seen faux 3D games before even going back to 3D monster maze on the ZX81 and games like Eye of the Beholder took place in dungeons which appeared to be rendered in 3D, but they were either fixed perspective or used prerendered views. In Wolfenstein it was all rendered in-game and your movement was fluid, not just one "square" at a time, so you could view things at any angle - the reason it looks similar to older games is the fault of the map editor's limitations, not the game engine.

Doom made the maps into polygons, and Quake made all the entities polygons too, as well as adding proper height. Again they were all like nothing we'd seen.

Halflife not only brought a story, but was an early example of believable AI, most noticably with the radio chat when you first met the soldiers. They'd know where you're hiding and try to flush you out with grenades and when you returned the compliment, they'd shout "grenade" over the radio and scatter. While basic by modern standards it was amazing at the time, before that game most enemies would stand around waiting to be shot or charge directly towards you.


Often people will attach more significance to the first example of a particular game type that they played, so games like Goldeneye and Halo often appear in these sort of lists as they provided an introduction to the FPS games, particularly the multiplayer component to players used only to console gaming, so they were significant only in bringing the genre to a new audience - as examples of the genre they compared poorly.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby HereComesPete » September 15th, 2015, 17:21

Strange for me that for all the hundreds of thousands of hours in many mmos we have as a collective and no-one has mentioned the fact that world of warcraft is 31. Surely influence, power and fanbase alone should put that higher, let alone the range of activity it offers?
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby Dr. kitteny berk » September 15th, 2015, 18:51

Thing is, I think that's about right.

Almost any recently added feature of WoW is at least indirectly influenced by MMOs that have been released since the last WoW expansion, not to mention wow being everquest being computer D&D.

In a way, that's testament to how even the best games are influenced by others... But it also makes it feel rather derivative and unoriginal at times.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby deject » September 25th, 2015, 3:16

Just to weigh in on the Mass Effect series, I would have to say that for me Mass Effect 1 and 2 are just about equally good, and both are better than 3. It's a shame really, because ME3 is by far the best in terms of gameplay and the multiplayer was actually a shit-ton of fun to play. However, the storytelling and characters in 1 and 2 are far superior to the hodge podge mess that they coughed up for the ending of ME3. I mean the scene in ME1 at Saren's base where you realize that the ship itself is really the enemy and you're talking to it was fucking brilliant. Sure the gunplay was not great, especially at the start when you have no skill points in anything but my god it was good. ME2 built on that with some of the best characters in any game I've ever played. Mordin, Thane, and Legion are all uniquely compelling in their own way and make the awkward middle chapter of every story not just tolerable but simply amazing.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby shot2bits » September 25th, 2015, 15:29

deject wrote:Just to weigh in on the Mass Effect series, I would have to say that for me Mass Effect 1 and 2 are just about equally good, and both are better than 3. It's a shame really, because ME3 is by far the best in terms of gameplay and the multiplayer was actually a shit-ton of fun to play. However, the storytelling and characters in 1 and 2 are far superior to the hodge podge mess that they coughed up for the ending of ME3. I mean the scene in ME1 at Saren's base where you realize that the ship itself is really the enemy and you're talking to it was fucking brilliant. Sure the gunplay was not great, especially at the start when you have no skill points in anything but my god it was good. ME2 built on that with some of the best characters in any game I've ever played. Mordin, Thane, and Legion are all uniquely compelling in their own way and make the awkward middle chapter of every story not just tolerable but simply amazing.


I've not played any of them bar about half of the first one (one day ill make time for them, maybe), but in terms of the story telling falling short in the ME3 for you is that purely due to lackluster ending or was it poor throughout the game? if the former i think its unfair to judge the entire games storytelling capabilities just because of the poor ending when its the ending for the trilogy not just that game, the other 2 games could of had just as poor an ending where they trying to tie up the story rather than leaving it for the next game. I only ask as the only bad critique I've heard of ME3 was for the ending and as i say i haven't even finished the first game let alone the series.
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Re: Sunday Symposium: PCG's Top 100 Games Ever (2015 version

Postby FatherJack » March 13th, 2017, 0:36

Four years later and I beat the boss battle with the ninja guy in Mass Effect 3 first time. It didn't seem that hard and I wasn't even in cover for a lot of it as I has forgotten the buttons. Myabe they made it easier, or I have just forgotten how I used to play 1 and 2 which is why I found 3 jarring.

Anyway finally I can hopefully finish it now. Leaves me a lot more hopeful that I'll like Andromeda.
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